Interview with Mick Herron
Interview with Mick Herron
author
Questions by Peter McAllister
The Slow Horses TV show won two BAFTAS this year and has previously been nominated for a Golden Globe. How does that feel?
It feels good. A lot of hard work has gone into making the show, and I’m delighted that those responsible are being recognised.
What do you think made you a writer? Did your parents or a teacher push you? Or was it just genetic?
Being a reader made me a writer. My mother was a primary school teacher and taught me to read before I went to school. I remember reading lessons going on where I was reading alone with the teacher, rather than in groups with everyone else as I was ahead of them in ability.
There was no need in childhood to escape from my siblings or parents. Reading just seemed more fun than real life and it absorbed me. I think it was inevitable that I’d become a writer because writing fiction is taking part in a dialogue. It’s not a monologue – it’s about responding to all the books you’ve ever read. And I just always wanted to do that. Of course it wasn’t until much later, in my 20s, when I basically had a conversation with myself about it. Said, ‘if you’re serious about this, you’ve got to start writing every day.’ It was a long time before I got to publication, but then, that particular process is always a long one.
Now that the Slow Horses TV adaptation has been produced, do you ever feel that it affects your writing at all? For example, do you see Gary Oldman when you’re writing about Jackson Lamb?
No, not really, because I’ve never had much of a visual imagination. It’s more about having my characters’ voices in my head: a sense of what they sound like, both in terms of what they say and how they deliver their words. I feel that the actors have done such fantastic jobs that, for me, there’s been no interruption in my feelings about the characters from before the TV show was made.
But in many ways, I’ll be the last to notice, because I live in the words so deeply. I’m currently writing another Slow Horses book, for the first time since the TV show aired, and I think I’m carrying on doing what I always did, just writing to the voices. But I notice that when I read stuff over, I can find myself pausing on a line and thinking about how the actors might ‘do this one’. I don’t think it’s affecting the way I’m writing, though.
What are your main/lasting memories of the Slow Horses adaptation process?
When the adaptation process started, my feeling was that it would be a matter of subtraction. That stuff would need to be cut to make it work on screen. Instead – and this took a while for me to understand – it was more complicated. Yes, there were cuts, but so much was also being added. And this is the advantage of having such a tremendous cast. Saskia Reeves can do with a look what it would take me an entire paragraph to describe. She brings the character of Catherine Standish to life in ways beyond what the printed word is capable of. There’s all sorts of stuff that the actors are bringing to the screen. It’s a very different narrative of storytelling to the page.
How did the show come together with such a fantastic team. And how did your production company persuade Mick Jagger to write The Slow Horses Theme Tune?
It was a long, drawn-out process – particularly in the early stages. Anyone who’s worked in TV knows there can be years between the first meeting and the show being screened and that was certainly my experience. It seemed like little was going on much of the time. I’d receive calls saying ‘so-and-so is interested in getting involved,’ but then there’d be nothing for months and sometimes they’d never be mentioned again.
The fantastic Will Smith came on board as a screenwriter, and various drafts of the script were written. There were still long stretches though – and I mean more than a year – where I didn’t hear anything at all. But it was bubbling away in the background and I just tried not to think about it.
Then two things happened quite close together. One was that Graham Yost came on board as a producer and showrunner. And the second thing to happen was that Gary Oldman signed up. Suddenly it was a done deal. I was told by producers that a lot of people they’d spoken to, directors and so on, had said, ‘No, we’re not very interested’. Suddenly they all found it a little more interesting.
The Mick Jagger thing was completely the opposite. It happened so quickly! I had no idea it was even on the cards until I got a phone call from Jamie Lawrenson, one of the producers, and from Will. ‘Guess who’s doing the music?’ they asked. I couldn’t believe it. Mick wrote the lyrics specifically for the show after he and the musical director had had discussions about what they wanted. They agreed on a sleazy London voice and Mick delivered on that.
Writing aside, do you have any other sort of professional ambitions?
I never had career ambitions as such; I just wanted to write. While I was working on my first book (which took several years) I worked as a sub-editor. I didn’t see it as a career as such, but I enjoyed it – most of the time. And I was good at it! But really, it was just a way to support myself while writing. If I’d wanted to work my way up the promotion tree, it would have meant taking on a managerial role, which I never had any kind of drive to do and suspect I would have been awful at.
It’s lovely that people are making my books into TV, but it wouldn’t matter to me if that wasn’t happening, so long as I could continue to write full-time. I’ve been fortunate in the way things have turned out.
When you’re writing a book, do you ever let other people inside the writing bubble for a while? To get other opinions?
I don’t even tell anybody what it’s called until it’s finished. I keep everything private. I know that’s not how it’s always done now. Creative writing classes are more of a thing than they were when I started writing and they focus on a collaborative approach that involves feedback at every step of the way. But that doesn’t work for me. I find writing a personal pursuit. I don’t like people seeing early drafts because I know how poor they are and it’s only when I finish, when I think something is ready for publication, that I’ll let anyone else read it.
How much research do you do as part of your writing practice and do you enjoy it?
I’m not a researcher. With Slow Horses, there wasn’t much research to do. What there was, I kept minimal, and focused more on character than anything else. For instance, readers don’t need to know exactly how telephone surveillance software works and I can’t face finding out. I’ll just describe Jackson Lamb pressing the button that makes it happen and then describe his reaction when he hears what’s being said.
I think if the reader believes in the characters and what they do, then that’s fine. It doesn’t have to be completely accurate. To be carried away by a story, we have to believe in the characters. That’s where I focus my efforts.
You’ve talked in interviews in the past about how you’ve taken characters from the Slow Horses series, and used them in other things that you’ve written, but that they’re perhaps not going by the names we know them by. Was this the case with Dolphin Junction, your collection of short stories?
No, but it’s true of The Secret Hours … I’m interested in a particular kind of character. So they all sort of inhabit the same world, because I tend to write about failures – people not getting on with life, not running their lives successfully. I suppose it’s a stable of characters that I find interesting. Elements of that kind of characters appear in most everything I write.
When I was writing The Secret Hours, though, I’d told my publishers I was writing a standalone book, because that’s what it started out as. And I thought I’d take a break from the Slow Horses series, but it ended up being far more entwined with the series than I’d expected it to be. Yes, familiar characters appeared under different names … I hadn’t told the publishers this was happening. Thankfully they went very quickly from being, ‘Yes, write your standalone,’ (because they were they were kind of supportive – but really wanted me to be writing the series), to being very enthusiastic.
Could you talk us through how you go about creating those characters.
I find that it really happens on the page, rather than in the abstract. When I was starting out, certainly when I started writing Slow Horses, I did write little paragraphs about each of the characters, trying to build backstories, a bit of biography… but it largely felt fake. That said, I needed a certain amount of hard data about each character, so that I could take off from there. But I found that once I put a character onto the page and had them interacting with another character, that’s when I found out what they sounded like and what they really thought. That’s when I really came up with their backstory, their private lives, all that kind of stuff.
I think it all comes down to conversation and description, which appears as I’m writing. For me, and I’m sure this is quite common, creativity is a dynamic process in that when you’re doing it, it energises itself. When you’re sitting in a room trying to think, ‘I’m going to write a novel,’ you could stare out the window for hours without anything happening. It’s when the work is going down on the page that it starts to become clear. I find it difficult to talk about, though – I recognise it when it’s happening, but struggle to describe it.
Can you talk us through your daily writing process. Do you write a certain number of words each day, or write for a set period of time, perhaps?
Many years ago, when I used to sit on that train for three hours each day going in and out of London, I’d use that time to think about what I was going to write when I got home. I didn’t realise how much thinking I was doing in those times until I stopped doing the job (and therefore taking the train each day). Back then, when I finally got home, I’d have an hour and a half when I’d write everything I’d been thinking about on those journeys and it was bliss. I wanted to do that bit all day every day, so I figured if I quit my job, I’d be able to do just that: sit at the desk and write all day long. But I quickly realised that what was lacking was the space in which to work out what I’d be writing about.
I decided I needed to find a way in my (new) daily life of having that brooding time. With no hour and a half deadline to write to when I got home each night, I found I was actually doing less writing than when I was working!
And there was no way you could have worked on the train?
No. I could do other kinds of work, but not writing. I used to review books, and I did plenty of that. But creating worlds and characters, that was something I wasn’t able to do on a busy train.
So what does your brooding time look like now? And how does it fit in with your writing time?
The number of words I write each day varies. I now know when I’ve written my last word of the day. For a while I used to sit trying to force more out and it never came or was rubbish if it did. Now, when I get that feeling that I’m done for the day, even if it’s before ten in the morning, I just embrace it. I read a lot. I go for walks. I listen to music. It’s all quite similar to dossing about, really.
What’s it like in the writers room, when you’re working on adaptations of your books?
I had thought it would be awful. I mean, again, going back to the idea of writing being a very private, personal thing to me, I’d imagined the writers room would involve people sitting around a table and me sulking in the corner, saying, ‘No, you’re getting it all wrong. Stop it.’ Instead, I found it very energising. There was a lot of experience there, and a lot of laughter. Graham was very good at managing us. He spent the first day asking us about ourselves. It was like a therapy group. He was saying, ‘tell us a bit about yourselves and get to know each other.’ It was a bonding routine.
Above and beyond that, everybody was treating the material with a huge amount of respect, talking about the characters as if they were real people. I don’t really do that, so it was quite extraordinary to me to hear the respect the groups were treating the characters with. It was over and above anything that I would have expected.
I’ve had books optioned before that never went anywhere. So it took a while before I thought, ‘actually this one is going to happen,’ and happen with writers who were really good and knew what they were doing, and that it was going to be something I’d be proud to be associated with. I became very enthused, always left the writers room feeling energised, about the books, about the characters, because they were taking them so seriously, discussing things like the way they dressed, where they went to school, questions I’d never thought about.
And all of this was necessary if the TV show was to have a life of its own. Everyone needed to know the characters as well as I did. It’s a different kind of storytelling and not one I was familiar with. It had to be allowed its own energy, its own space. I think to be successful, we had to allow both the writers and the actors to take possession of the characters
What’s your favourite book of your own? And why?
That’s tricky. I mean, I dislike being asked about my favourite book, because I think that you can have a favourite book if you’ve only read five books. Once you’ve read more than that, it gets difficult.
With my own books, Slow Horses obviously changed my life. It didn’t do it at the time – it took about a decade – but it did affect everything. So I’m very glad I wrote that. But the one I look back on with perhaps the most pride is Spook Street. It’s a book that, when I finished writing it, I hated it. I remember giving it to my publisher and saying, ‘I’m really sorry. I’ll do better next time.’ He came back to me a couple of days later and said, ‘What are you talking about?’
When I’m writing, I go all over the emotional graph, from thinking, ‘this is the best thing I’ve ever done,’ to ‘this is awful. I can’t rescue this.’ And that can happen overnight, without my having even looked at the book in the meantime. At the point of submitting a book to my publisher, I generally think it’s awful, and it takes about a year before I can think of it with anything other than a shudder. And I need to be working on the next thing. That’s when I can look back with a more balanced view.
Do you have any plans to write a memoir? Something like an Ian McEwan or Brett Ellis style Magnus Opus, perhaps?
Not remotely. I think all comes back to the writing, you know? A writer who’s doing his or her job well is just sitting in a room alone getting on with it. And there’s not much that’s interesting about that.
Going back to ‘Dolphin Junction’, your short story collection. How did you decide to structure it in the way that you did? Did it just the stories just kind of speak to each other? Or did you have an underlying narrative that you worked through?
There was no underlying narrative. In fact, with one exception, the stories had all been written a long time before the book was published – I don’t really write short stories anymore. I’d like to, but you can get away with more when you’re writing a novel. In the short story, you really need to bang the nail on the head.
Compiling the collection. I took all the stories I’d written or published and decided which ones I didn’t want to see again. The sequenced them in what I thought was the most effective way. Some of them were about the same characters, so they needed to be in a specific order. For the rest, it was just instinct.
The poets among you will know that the order on which you present poems is hugely important, and is rarely the order in which they were written. True, this matters more to the poet than it does to anyone else … But still, it feels like there’s a correct order. I tried to achieve that when arranging the stories.
And did you find that you were amending the stories as you were putting them together, so that they worked as a collection.
I don’t remember adjusting anything. There might have been one or two continuity things because as I say, some of the some of the stories are about the same characters, but I don’t think they’re connected enough that that was necessary.
Do you like reading short story collections? And, given recently reported sales increases, do you think the tide of opinion is turning towards them?
Publishers have a strange attitude toward short story collections. They seem reluctant to commit to them, as if readers shy away from them.But there’s something magical about the uninterrupted effect of a short story that you can read from start to finish in one sitting without having to reinvest yourself in it. When you’re reading a novel, you have to put it down, get on with your life, then come back and re-engage with the story over and over. With short stories, you sit down and read the whole thing from start to finish without any interruption. I think most committed fiction readers appreciate this. It’s like getting your narrative fix in one shot. Readers love that! Publishers should rethink their game.
About Mick Herron
Mick Herron’s six Slough House novels have been shortlisted for eight CWA Daggers, winning twice, and shortlisted for the Old Peculier Crime Novel of the Year three times. The first, Slow Horses, was picked as one of the best twenty spy novels of all time by the Daily Telegraph, while the most recent, Joe Country, was a Sunday Times top ten bestseller.
Mick Herron was born in Newcastle upon Tyne, and now lives in Oxford.